Occupy Wall Street Protests

@Doc: Who is making assumptions? I never said anything about all people having iphones, cars, etc... Instead, I was just offering up some of the measures that I had to take these past years. As for the image, obviously that's just a bit of silly humor I threw in to lighten the mood more than anything. I also never mentioned anything about health insurance, job creation, or the mortgage issue. It's clear that you are really emotionally invested seeing how much you blew that all up.

That said, I looked through the links you provided. Here's my thoughts:

I definitely believe that predatory lending practices exist. I believe they had a big hand in creating the financial situation we are in now. As such, I think that sanctions and increased oversight are in order. However, it's fair to say that the people who knowingly took out loans based on income statements that were way over their actual earnings managed to help create the problem too (not necessarily the veterans that the story is speaking about). In the same way, those people should be seeing some kind of punishment.

I can agree that tax breaks do not necessarily result in job creation. I feel that the article is misleading though in that it seemingly makes it sound like those tax holidays lead to job cuts. That's silly logic. Giving corporations tax holidays can only reasonably be expected to create an anticipation of future tax holidays.

Not going to argue with numbers. I will say that I don't think health insurance is a right (unpopular as that may make me).

The story is an anecdote, much like my previous post. Hell, the Huffington Post author even states that they are soliciting anecdotes.

I think that if we are going to rely on that story, then what I stated in my post should be just as reliable.

Lastly, I'm glad you took the morally superior path and decided to just assume naïveté. That's not the case. Like I stated in my original post, I don't feel much sympathy to the whole movement because I've dealt with all of the same issues they are protesting over and found that hard work and living off of just basic needs has carried me through and put a good future in front of me.

 

The assumptions were things I've seen from other posts not necessarily yours, and re-reading it I apologize for directing it towards you. I brought up those subjects because that's what most people have concerns with who are the 99%. Saying these people are whining is completely negative and without merit as their gripes actually have a factual basis.

The Declaration of Independence clearly says you have the right to "life" and (i'm not religious by any means), but believe life is sacred, thus healthcare and the appropriate means to be healthy should be available to all, imo. I also agree with the healthcare story being an anecdote, but the fact that things like that occur is astounding is it not, in a country such as ours. That was my point with the stories. People get screwed.

And lastly I don't support everything in the movement, I maintain my own views. I'm not impoverished by any means. I've worked for everything I have as well, but realistically it's not rainbows and candy for everyone and major reasons for that are loopholes in the "system". Not for lack of trying or getting a liberal arts degree.

Also I just want to say, I respect each individuals opinions even if I disagree. I don't hold animosity and enjoy gaming with you guys. It's clear though that in this day and age we really need to have these types of discussion to know how everyone feels and why.

 

I can see your feelings about "life" including health care and I agree that where our system is now needs improvement for sure (Yeah, that healthcare story is ridiculous). I just feel the same way about that as I do with most things in that I want as little government involvement as reasonably possible. Just my opinion, but bureaucracy tends to create so many inefficiencies.

I can also agree that the things you pointed out do have merit. I just don't think I agree with the solutions Occupy Wall Street puts forth. I would like to see something that details the movement's proposed solutions so I could better develop my opinion on the matter.

I'd also like to say that I'm presently surprised that this thread has remained as civil as it has. This is nice to see.

Lastly, I just love this meme:

 

People get into financial strife despite this when they have family members who can't work, or chronic medical conditions. I knew a guy who worked for the US govt., was paid well, but only just managed to scrape by because he had type 1 diabetes. Similar stories of people dealing with medical problems, or having to support families with medical problems, make up most of the stories on the site that doc linked.

Most people can get a job eventually, and it's usually possible to pay for rent and groceries without touching credit. But from what I'm seeing, the US is a horrendously expensive place to be sick.

For those of us lucky enough to be in good health, all we have to do is think carefully before taking on debt or starting a family. The people who make it out of this are going to have a much shrewder attitude to money than the past few generations, at least.

 

And for a few generations to come unfortunately.

 

Why else would someone get forclosed on? bottom line ... not paying ... lets not sugar coat it ....

Becasue "signee" is an idiot and got themselves into an interest only or an ARM .... does not give them the right cry poor, complain about banks, or whatever ...

read what you sign, have some form of accountabilty

Gru

 

Then you dad failed to register his property as a "homestead" or protect himself finacially ...

The only reason I could see him losing his property is thru eminent domain ...

If he paid, signed a proper document with no loop holes, protected himself legally ... then a bank cannot legally do that ....

 

They are not doing it legally, thats the point.

 

Salary caps IMO, they do it in hockey, why not spread the love?

 

This country is already full of poverty. When like 90% of the wealth is controlled by 5% of the population what do you expect? As for other comments you sound misinformed and judgmental. Personally, speaking of course.

 

Wow some people are totally clueless in this thread .
The way I understand it is this protest is about corporate greed.
Now may be it has gotten twisted from what it stared out to be .
Hell we should be known as The Corporate States of America because thats what we are now.
As a small business owner I am fubar when it comes to being able to compete the way thing are now.
My salary is the same amount as my managers was when I started in this business 30 years ago.
The fact is these big corps just keep getting bigger and make more money at the expense of the American worker with no accountability.
When these corporations are posting record profits and the country is going broke well that should clue people in that something is wrong.
But what do we do(our government )give then tax breaks so they can make even more money.

You know I heard a true story about Henry Ford .
When he started making a lot of cars and was not sell many .
He said and did "I can sell these cars and make good money but if I pay my employees more money they will be able to by my car's and not just the rich .
and my employee will be happy and I will make lots of money".
Now I know that was a different time but I feel it still holds true. but what is happening now is all the money is being held at the top and very little is coming back down to the people/worker.
These corporations keep finding ways to cut the work force and have them do more for the same or even less pay.

Now when it comes to people being lazy and wanting something for nothing Yes they are out there .
I have seen four generation of many family's on government assistants and they know how to play the system and play it well.
But that is a whole other issue all together.

I would like to believe and think it is that this is more about the wrongs going on in big business and government and making then right . then some people just wanting a free ride.

 

/rant
Ah, so the what, 30 million Americans who WERE working just a couple years ago all suddenly became very lazy. That's the cause of this crisis. It's so obvious. Silly me.

Are there lazy people? Obviously. Is that why so many people are out of work? Total bullshit. The cause is a huge macroeconomic imbalance between capital supply and consumer demand world-wide, and working hard won't do jack all to correct it.

In fact, you want to know what would happen today if American workers suddenly buckled down and became 10% more productive overnight? That one's easy:

Mass layoffs due to 'excess production capacity'.

I am nauseated by the ease with which so many people are turned against there own neighbor and kids the moment they are out of a job - by the very same politicians and bankers who created this crisis in the first place. They are real class of grade-A suckers for propaganda!

You all claim you want to see something done about the fact that these folks who constructed this crisis weren't punished? Then perhaps you should go down there and help shape the message, rather than sitting around pointlessly criticizing the naivete of a bunch of students and laborers who're trying to actually do something.

Because at this moment, however ineffective they might be - they're doing more than you are.

It has to do with the fact that the financial system has been turned directly against us - it is overtly hostile to what we hope to achieve both as individuals and a society. It has changed from its original function to a primarily parasitic one - and it has so much money that it effectively controls much of the country's politics.

It does very little good to claim that you are a clever, hard worker when the deck you are scrambling to stand on continues to tilt further and further into the ocean. At a certain point no matter how heroic your efforts, you will find that most of the people around you have been swept away and the society you've been working so hard to serve is essentially gone.

Oh but I tired harder "I've been laid off before during this very down market. but I bounced back by educating myself further and jumping down a new career path. Do you these guys with there designer scarfs and signs begging for someone to pay there college tuition have actually worked a hard day in his life? I work, hard. I'm working 12 hour days, commuting 120 miles a day to get to my job and and spending money back into the economy."

Oh, as a note regarding your 12 hour days?

Foolish - you're taking work away from other people who need it more, and degrading your own standard of living in the process - a lose/lose choice on your part.

One of the major new deal components that helped end the great depression and bring unemployment under control was the 8/8/8 proposition - 8 hours of work, 8 hours of leisure, and 8 hours of sleep. Once mandated by law, corporations were forced to hire many more people to make up their production needs, and that forced wages up.

People are trapping yourselves in a literal catch-22 of productivity - the harder you work, the worse your conditions will become. Fun huh? But the math really does work that way.

Of course, now that we have free trade agreements with huge foreign labor pools, your company can simply fire you for working less than 12 hours, and send your job overseas for 1/3 the salary. Capitalism is efficient you see - and because all it is truly geared for is productivity and profit, it is mathematically guaranteed to create the WORST POSSIBLE LIVING CONDITIONS for its labor pool - IE, it will always try to wring the maximum possible work out of you for the minimum pay.

Historically speaking, unregulated capitalism has time and again rapidly reduced the majority of its workforce participants to subsistence level conditions - or below (i.e. it will kill you if you are easily replaceable). Just look at the early era of industrialization, the lower classes of Britain for much of its history, and so on. The evidence for how it operates is quite abundant.

That is the ultimate mantra of corporate efficiency. Worship it at your own peril.
/end rant

I just felt I needed to add my own two cents after everyone else did *shrug* I typically close these rather then comment, but alas we all make mistakes.

 

+1 for the two previous posts.

 

Occupy Toronto

From the Toronto Sun but still a humorous read which I do agree with.

Occupy Toronto

These people camping out should be fined, cleared out and arrested. If they have jobs and are blowing off work, fire them. If the homeless cannot stay in a park overnight why should these people be any different, because they make more money? Fuck that. These people have no right to disrupt peoples daily goings on. Blocking traffic and inhabiting a public area making it unusable by the rest is unacceptable.

 

http://takeourjobs.org/

 

The Port-a-potty business is booming.

 

Great post by Rowl & Delshin. It's nice when intelligent people speak. Theres always more than one side of the story and I'm glad you guys are seeing it straight.

My this is the very start of the revolution I've been waiting for. My brother has attended Occupy Wall St and I'm definitely going there soon.

 

Agreed, thanks Rowl, delshin - as I've read more about this subject it's clear that a lot of these people have at least a few good points, even if they're not too good at putting them into words. Nobody really seems to agree on what to do about them, but I can agree that a lot of care needs to be taken not to leave the common worker and now-out-of-work-former-worker out in the cold.